Deep Travel, Better Stories: Award-Winning Travel Journalist Judith Fein on Transformative Travel

Travel has quietly turned into a consumer product: a checklist, a status symbol and an endless hunt for the “best” hotel deal. That shift is exactly what award-winning travel journalist and author Judith Fein pushes back on, and our conversation left me rethinking what I even want from a trip, whether it’s across the ocean or across town.

Judith shares her surprising path from Hollywood screenwriting to public radio and then into travel journalism for more than 130 publications. We talk about traveling and reporting alongside her husband, photographer and writer Paul Ross, plus the emotional pull of heritage travel and why walking the land your ancestors came from can feel like meeting yourself again. From there, we get into the heart of her work: deep travel and transformative travel that changes how you see people, culture and your own life.

We also unpack “slow travel” in a way that actually works for real schedules. Judith argues it’s not about taking more time off, it’s about being present, staying curious and letting experiences unfold without needing to control every moment. For travel PR professionals and tourism boards, she offers grounded advice on creating itineraries and storytelling that speak to the spirit, not just “heads in beds,” and how authentic experiences can drive better engagement and bookings.

If you’ve felt burnt out by travel planning, bored by cookie-cutter destination marketing or hungry for more meaningful travel, this one is for you. 

Subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and please leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

Judith's Website: https://globaladventure.us

Psychology Today column: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/life-is-trip

TEDx Talk Deep Travel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GErjagMyrYk

Monthly newsletter: https://globaladventure.us

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Judith Fine

Angela 0:05

Welcome to Media in Minutes. This is your host, Angela Toole. This podcast features in-depth interviews with those who report on the world around us. They share everything from their favorite stories to what happened behind the lens and give us a glimpse into their world. From our studio here at Communications Redefined, this is Media in Minutes. Today we're talking with Judith Fein, an award-winning travel journalist, author, speaker, and storyteller whose work explores something much deeper than a destination checklist. Based in Santa Fe, Judith has contributed to more than 130 publications, including CNN Travel, BBC, Psychology Today, AARP, AFAR, and Photos. She's the author of four books, including Life is a Trip, The Transformative Magic of Travel, and the award-winning Slow Travel New Mexico, named Best Travel Book by the Arizona New Mexico Book Awards. Alongside her husband, writer, photographer Paul Ross, Judith has spent decades traveling the world, telling stories that explore culture, healing, human connection, and what travel can teach us about ourselves and one another. Judith is also known for her TEDx talk on deep travel and her work exploring how travel can transform us emotionally, psychologically, and culturally, not just show us new places, but new ways of seeing the world and ourselves. Judith, welcome. I'm so excited for this conversation because I think you're going to make us all think a little differently about travel.

Judith 1:35

Well, we hope so.

Angela 1:39

You've written for more than 130 publications that are in the world. Workaholic, work on spent years living abroad. But I'd love to

From Screenwriting To Travel Radio

Angela 1:50

start at the beginning. You know, what first pulled you toward travel writing?

Judith 1:54

I didn't know that there was such a thing as travel writing. I was a I had come back from living in Europe. I was a Hollywood uh writer, I was a Hollywood screenwriter. Oh, and it was sucking the soul out of me. And I knew I had to do something different. And I got a telephone call from my sister, and she said, There's this uh new show on public radio. Uh it's a national radio show, and it's called The Savvy Traveler, and you'd be perfect. And I said, Oh, how could you ever get it? It was called The Savvy Traveler. And um I said, Oh, you can't get on national radio like that. And I had just been on a trip. I took us, I went to a silent retreat in Arizona, and I checked into a monastery, and I managed in a week to get into a food fight with a nun. I got arrested on the dark road because you take yourself with you. And so my sister said, Why don't you record that? I recorded it, I sent it in, and with four days, and within four days, I was uh a contributor to uh the savvy traveler. It was a Rudy Max's show. Yes. Do you remember that? Yes, yes. And uh then I said one day, wow, if I have a national audience, why can't I write something about travel? And I I did, and I sent it into a newspaper, and it's one of the major ones in the United States, and they immediately published the story. And I said, Oh, I could do this. That's exactly how it happened.

Angela 3:26

Wow, that is fantastic. So, how would you summarize your career so far? And what are you the most proud of?

Judith 3:33

I'm proud that everything I do is geared toward in my tiny little way, in the ocean of humanity, helping in some little way to make things better, to inspire people to make them think differently. And I have a background, as I said, in uh screenwriting. I ran a theater company in Europe for nine years. Everything I have done, I think from the minute I was born, was to try to help people, inspire, and not just feed into May's mentality. I would say that.

Angela 4:07

That is fantastic. And you and your husband, Paul, have traveled and worked together for years. Because you often travel and report together. How does that change the experience for destinations or PR teams hosting you?

Judith 4:22

It really doesn't be because Paul is an award-winning travel journalist on his own and also photographer. So we always have the art covered, and uh we work very, very synchronistically. We found out, by the way, through genetic testing, we found out that our ancestors come from the same tiny village. So we're pro so yes, so so we're we're

Ancestry Trips And Belonging

Judith 4:45

probably related, and we're like one person with two heads.

Angela 4:49

What village is that?

Judith 4:51

It's called Minkowicz. I wrote a book about it because I I wanted to inspire people to make the trip of their lifetime going to the place their ancestors came from. Because, Angela, when you walk that land, when you breathe that air, they're still there. They're still there. It's such a connection to who you really are and where you came from. And I think that's the trip of a lifetime for everybody.

Angela 5:16

Where is Minkowitz?

Judith 5:18

It's in Ukraine now.

Angela 5:19

Okay.

Judith 5:20

Southwestern Ukraine.

Deep Travel Versus Travel As Commodity

Angela 5:22

That's fantastic. You know, you talk a lot about deep travel and transformative travel. What do those terms mean to you?

Judith 5:30

Okay, so I would have to start by saying what travel no longer means to me. Somehow, travel has become a commodity. It's like spending abroad. Yeah, it's a it's a consumerist activity. And I'm telling you, we have been invited to islands that are so remote, like five people have been there in the last year. And when we get off this little rickety boat and we land on the island, someone says, Hello, welcome to our island. We are targeting the high-end traveler. And something about that is wrong. A few days ago, I was on the phone with someone who's the head of a tourism board for a different state.

Angela 6:12

Yeah.

Judith 6:13

And uh I said, and they said they were going on a trip. And I said, Oh, how is that? And they said, I got a great deal in a hotel. The hotel is $75. And I said, What are we doing? Why is everything geared just to the high-end traveler? That's not how most of us travel.

Angela 6:28

Right.

Judith 6:28

So, what are we doing? Why were we attracted to this profession in the first place? What excited all of us about travel? And how did that turn into only targeting the high-end traveler? That's my big question. And um, and I really mean it. And it doesn't mean that you don't want high-end travelers, of course you do. That brings in good income, heads in beds, heads in very expensive beds. That's good, and we certainly do it. And we write about the best restaurants, the best hotels, everything. But that's not the soul of travel. So everything that I write about deep travel is how do you connect to your soul? How do you and your soul go on a trip? If you're in PR, how do you and your soul arrange for a um someone in the media to have a trip? What who are you as a person? What does travel mean to you personally? And then there's work. So that's that's my answer about deep travel, that it's not just about consuming, it's about allowing the the organs of your body, your your heart, your brain, your mind, your eyes to open to things that will really enhance your own life. Otherwise, you're just working a uh grunt job. How do you turn it into something meaningful every time you leave your house? Not just when you're going to another country, how do you, not just off the beaten path, it's all off the beaten mental path to get back to yourself. Why did you like traveling? Why do you still like traveling? What does travel even mean to us now?

Angela 7:59

So is that too heavy and to those are I'm thinking through all of those answers or through all those questions. So, what what are your what are your answers to the questions? Oh goodness. I think I have to think through those a little bit more, but we love to experience a local culture, you know, and make sure that we're that we're eating the local food and and trying to um you know do experiences with local guides and and really get a taste of the place, not from like an all-inclusive resort or from you know, something people that might not be their locals. I feel like that that helps us see a place a little bit more um real, I guess.

Judith 8:39

So your answer is wonderful, and that's exactly the answer. But to me, you have to try to live that way every day of your life, even when you're not traveling. Every time you live you leave your house. Yesterday, Paul and I, Paul's my husband, we went uh shopping at a local market. And it was a health food store, and the guy behind the counter, there weren't a lot of people there, and he started talking about how he's a mycologist, how he has studied for years, and he goes and he gathers mushrooms, and it ended up with an invitation to come and to learn more about him and to meet his family. That's what travel is. And all we did, we went shopping for food.

Angela 9:19

Yes, that

Slow Travel As Presence Anywhere

Angela 9:20

is fantastic. You know, you also talk about slow travel, and I love that idea. My only question about it is how do you do that when you only have a week? Or, you know, what is what is your advice for travelers and that might not have you know longer time to travel to completely slow it down?

Judith 9:40

Okay, slow travel to me does not mean slowing down. Okay, what it what it means is exactly what you said you do and you love to do. It's about how do you actually be present wherever you are. It could be a trip for half a day, it could be a trip for half a year. It doesn't matter. It's an attitude of not having a checklist, not what people read about other people said about the place, but really being there. And that means that everything is new, everything is stimulating. So you've slowed down your need to do the next, to go on to the next. It's about, I'm telling you, it's about shopping for food. Slow travel is actually talking to people and listening to them, actually looking at what's around you, being there. And it doesn't, the length has nothing to do with it. It's not about time, it's about quality and it's about the content, and it's about you, the person. How are you really there so you vibrate with life and and connection?

Angela 10:47

That is fantastic. Is there a destination or experience beside going to your homeland that completely changed you?

Judith 10:56

You know, the first book I wrote is called Life is a Trip, the Transformative Magic of Travel. And it's about 14 places that I went and how they changed me. And and so I have written about that, and it's something very, very important. When I learn something that just stops me in my tracks, and um, you know, that's that's it. That's that's my answer.

Angela 11:23

Yeah. All right. How often are you traveling and any exciting upcoming trips?

Ditching Research And Welcoming Surprise

Judith 11:29

Well, we just got back from two back-to-back trips. Okay. So this is the thing. When we we've trained a lot of travel journalists, we we were teaching it. We would take people to another country, to some uh destination that we think is fabulous, that's unexplored. We dump them in the field, we teach 15 hours a day. Wow, and and we and we get people, hopefully, we get them really excited about what they're doing, what they're writing, and everything like that. So, about upcoming trips, I tell them something that horrifies them. I do zero research, nothing before I I want to be Marco Polo. You think Marco Polo had books? You think Marco, but I want to go someplace and I want to learn about it for myself. I want it to be Mrs. Marco Polo, okay. Ms. Marco, I want to go someplace that I have not pre-digested before going there. I want to go someplace where I have no expectations. I just go. So my answer is that I do no research and I arrive, and because I know I'm gonna be writing about this, I'm on the key vive all the time, listening, learning. Nothing is planned out except the place where we're staying. Because I don't want to have I don't want to have to deal deal with that. So it's really uh about that. It's about where's the next trip? You know, okay, we've been home for four days now, so it's time to start thinking where we're gonna go next. I don't know, I'll look at a map. Where is it not gonna be that hot right now? And it's not, it's not uh, it's rarely pre-planned. And when I work with PR people, when Paul and I are working with PR people, yeah, we set it up um in advance. We certainly know the key places, but we discover it when we're there. That's what we do when we travel. You can I have very few other skills in life, but if if but actually, if you drop me anywhere on the planet within five minutes, I'll find something that nobody knows about.

Angela 13:27

That is amazing.

Judith 13:28

And so the PR people, the tourism board people always say, How did you find there? This I've lived here all my life, I never found it. That's what I'm talking about. That you're so oh, I'll tell you this one thing. Um, can you relate to what I'm talking to you about?

Angela 13:44

Well, I am completely opposite though. I'm very type A and very planner. So I have, so I plan it out completely before we go. I almost gives the anxiety thinking about not having a plan.

Judith 13:56

But what's wrong with a little anxiety if it leads to change?

Angela 14:00

That could yes, that's a great point.

Judith 14:02

In other words, okay, I don't know what we're doing today, but what happens if you were to try, let's say, for three hours for half a day something that you just see what shows up for you when you're traveling someplace. Yeah, that's what that's what I'm talking about. And um, I don't know. I just I'm rethinking travel all the time. What is travel? It's having it's not having everything planned out. Um I don't think you have to you don't have to be like me. I'm very type A too, by the way. But you don't have to do what I'm doing, you don't have to do it my way, you have to do it your way. But what if you just focus on going someplace rather than what you accomplished there or what you expect? What happens if you just do that?

Angela 14:50

That's a great way of thinking of it. You know, right now in our life, we travel with our children, and so yeah, I feel like it's easier to have the plan where we're going to go to dinner, what we're gonna do. Um, but I think I could do it definitely as a couple or you know, on my own, be a little more, not have it all planned out. So we'll try that one day.

Judith 15:07

Report back to me because it's absolutely it's it is more difficult with children. But some how old how old are your children?

Angela 15:14

Um actually you've got a nine-year-old and two 14-year-olds.

Judith 15:18

But you know what? They have ideas of their own.

Angela 15:20

They're older, yeah.

Judith 15:22

What happens if they're um I don't I don't know. What if you you ask them, what kind of thing would you like to do today? What not it doesn't have to be exact, but what kind of what what what do you feel like you'd like to do today? What are you interested in right now? And you let and you follow that. What if you let them be the guides?

Angela 15:40

That's a great idea. We'll have we'll have to look at that and report back to you, like you said.

Judith 15:46

Okay, but you know what? It's it's uh, but PR people that we're working with, tourism boards that we're working with, they are beginning to understand that because people want experiences.

Angela 15:57

So, do you not want an itinerary when you're going on a hosted trip? Do you not want anything planned for you?

Judith 16:03

We absolutely do want things planned. Okay, because the wondrous parts of it, we can have meetings with the director of something, with someone who's in charge, with a guide or something like that. But when we're with that person or when we're in that place, I want it to be totally new. I want it to be something that I've never felt before in my life, that I've never seen before. So it's within the itinerary that you plan together, it's what do you do at each stop, at each step with each person? How do you handle that? That's what it's about.

Better Travel PR Through Human Connection

Angela 16:36

Okay, that makes complete sense. What is some of your um best advice for PR people? Since I know you've worked with many of them over the years.

Judith 16:44

Oh, yeah, many. And some have become very good friends. What what my best advice would be this why are you doing your job? Why are you doing PR? Talk to me about you. Forget about me for a minute, okay? We'll get back to that. But what what it what excites you about it? What interests you? Like I just asked you, Angela, about traveling.

Angela 17:08

Yeah.

Judith 17:09

You know, how do you travel? What gets you excited? What if you consulted with your kids? What if they were your PR people for a couple of hours? And to go back to who you are, because what it's like now is that everything is focused on, you know, a few magazines, a few of this. It's a very limited view of travel. Open up your heart. We um we have gone, we've trained PR people and media people. How do they get back to that in themselves? And it'll totally change the way they work and how they look at things. Now, you have to provide numbers, you have to get heads in beds. Right. But but how can you do it in a more personal way? How can you do it in a way where the structure is different? Does it always have to be targeting the same three publications? Look how many have folded, look how many publications have gone out. And, you know, there are two kinds of travelers. There were the travel, uh, I don't know, they're the influencers. That's a particular kind of travel, and they have uh huge audiences. And then then there's the kind of travel which are you know narrative travel writers and photographers. And how how do you target different markets? It may not be exactly the same number, but it's people who are really interested, let's say, in cultural travel. It's not all the same audience. And to try, and you know, you have to, you have people that you're working for, but how do you get everybody on board? We're we're alive for a certain number of years. How do we all do the best we can as humans? Not just about putting a certain number of heads in beds. How do we make this better? How do we make the planet better? How do we improve things? How do we reach more people? How do we get more people, more first-time travelers? How do we get more people who are really interested in different experiences? How do we do that? How do we stop being programmed robotic people? That's that's uh that's my answer. And so maybe the number of people who are reading the particular publication you want, maybe the numbers less, but maybe the enthusiasm, the excitement, the innovation, what they're gonna tell their friends. Right.

Angela 19:17

And actually more bookings, maybe.

Judith 19:20

And of course more bookings, you're in PR, you want bookings, but maybe get we just came back from a trip. I can't talk about it yet because I have to write um two articles about it. Okay, but uh but when I tell people they all want to go. Yeah. But they've never heard of it. But the the tourism people may not have heard of it, but exploring, letting everybody think that their life matters. Well, I don't know, what are there, eight billion of us on the planet now? But how do we have a trip that we feel like it's customized for us? And then you will get many, many more travelers, you'll get many, many more bookings. We got people excited, just telling them about something that no one knew about. They said, Oh, I want to go, I want to do. That's what we're trying to do. And to work with PR people, I'm telling you, when we worked with um people who are in in PR, destination people, we have to get them excited about their lives so that they can pass that on, so that they can think differently. And they become like kids, they become joyous kids. That's rather than just going to a pressureful job all the time. How do we become joyous? And we will pass this on and we will get bookings because we'll be doing it in a way that's synchronous with who we are as human beings.

Angela 20:36

Yes, we love having clients that we are passionate about their destination, their place, you know, whatever their experience, whatever it may be, because that's the part that's really fun when we find that we're passionate about it.

Judith 20:51

May I ask you for one example of something that's happened to you like that with a client?

Angela 20:56

You know, I more just the actual client. So we work with Dream Yacht Worldwide, which is an amazing yacht rental company. It is not, you know, below deck type yachts. It's it's attainable affordable ones, which is actually, you know, obviously the word affordable is um is subjective, but um, you can rent a cabin any in 40 something places around the world and see a destination from a different angle.

Judith 21:22

Oh, that's fabulous.

Angela 21:24

It's very slow travel-ish, almost as we were talking about. And a lot of times you don't have it planned out because it depends on the water and the weather and where you want to stop and how long you want to stay at a place. And we have loved working with them and are, you know, got to experience it ourselves and are passionate about it.

Judith 21:41

So I love doing that. But even your even your voice changes when you talk about it.

Angela 21:46

Yeah.

Judith 21:47

You you could get anybody on a phone call, or you know, I'm sure you can do it also in writing. You could get anybody excited about that because you're excited about it.

Angela 21:56

Yes. It's easier, it's easier uh over the phone, like you said. I mean, you can do it in writing, definitely, but you can actually hear the excitement when you're talking to someone.

Judith 22:05

Yes, and yes, and it makes you excited. It makes you want to do it. It makes you want to go. So you get it entirely. Yes. But also, it's really funny that a lot of times the pe if you're doing something where there are other people besides you doing it, you're not just doing it alone or with people that you're traveling with. Right. Meeting other travelers is also part of the experience. It's also the excitement. We've made friends like that that we're in touch with for 20 years now.

Angela 22:31

Yes, yes. We did that. We've done that as well. I remember one on a on the boat from Venice to Murano and met a couple and um have still, yeah, kept in touch with them as well. It's it's some of the best experiences.

Judith 22:45

But all of it is that if your work, your life, your travel, if everything is about experiences, that that's the focus. That's not a secondary thing. That's the focus. And yes, you can plan everything out, you can know every restaurant you're going to, but just the experience, just to be open, to be open like we were when we were kids. Yeah. That's how you were just excited about something and you got me excited. That's how it works. That's exactly how it works.

Angela 23:16

Yeah. Are there any um destinations specifically that really surprised you or that you dream about returning to?

Judith 23:25

Every place. When people say to me, What's your favorite place? They always they're always different. They always ask me. They say that's a hard question. And my answer is always the same. The place I just came from. That's my favorite place. Yeah. That's uh, yeah.

Angela 23:42

You you have definitely said a lot for us to think about, and I love that. I love that you're, you know, the books you've written, the TED X um talk you've given. I think there's so much that you have taught and you know can still teach PR professionals and travel writers. Um, so I really appreciate it.

Judith 24:01

But it but it but it's just, you know, I

Work That Speaks To The Spirit

Judith 24:04

want to tell you something. There's a museum and it's in uh southern Colorado, and it's on the reservation of the Southern Ute tribe. And I first went to this museum. I just went back to, I went to the museum again recently, but I went there, I would say maybe I don't know, eight years ago, something like that. I walked into the museum and there was a room off to the right, and it was shaped like a kiva, kind of a uh Native American ceremonial space, round, but there was nothing in it. I said, Oh, well, you know, the museum's kind of new, they probably haven't gotten it to it yet. And Paul said to me, Go back into that room and wait for 30 seconds. So I said, okay, I'll be an obedient wife for once. So I go so I go back into the room and I wait for 30 seconds, and all of a sudden, video screens show up all around the keeper, all around this round space, and it's an elder, and he says, I want you to listen carefully to what I'm going to say, because I am speaking to your soul, to your spirit. And it had such an impact on me. And uh very often that's how I, if I'm giving a talk, I'll start out with that, and I'll say, I want you to please listen to me because I'm speaking to your heart and to your soul. And that's how I feel about everything, and that I hope it's contagious, and that PR anybody listening to this podcast or any PR person starts thinking, how do you make your work speak to your soul, make speak to your spirit, so that every client, every person, everybody you're dealing with feels that. And then you go to sleep at night and you put your ears differently on your pillow.

Angela 25:48

And you know that you're doing good work, right?

Judith 25:51

What does good work mean to you?

Angela 25:53

Yeah, I mean, it means how you described it, having um passion for what you're doing and um to feel meaningful, you know, to feel that it was meaningful work.

Judith 26:03

Yes, that it's meaningful work and also to breathe. We're living in such a breathless world. Everything is deadlined, and you gotta have it done now, and then you gotta just just breathe into your own life. And then everything you're doing, every person you're dealing with, just breathe with them for a moment and and just stop thinking about yourself as a production machine.

Angela 26:25

Yes.

Judith 26:26

But there's so much wrong with the world. What can you do for one moment to make somebody's life better? And if you work with a client, if you're working with people, as many of you are, look what you can add to their lives. It's very different from always being focused on, you know, the number of bookings right now and how it just to enter your own life so that they can enter theirs. That's, I don't know, that's the way it looks to me.

Angela 26:52

And I think we can learn a lot of those lessons from people from other countries. I feel like it's much, much they do, they do that much better than we do in America.

Judith 27:02

That's a very, very interesting comment. And yes, yes, that when you talk to people from other countries, whether they're people you're traveling with or whether they're people, you know, that you meet, or it's the actual an actual country or a different or a state or wherever you are, that if you talk to them about meaningful things, you will get meaningful responses and you'll go, oh wow, that's a how how come I never thought of that? Well, that's that's much better than the way we do it. Yeah, but you have to really be present, yeah.

Angela 27:33

Yes, and that's a whole part of traveling, I feel, is learning from other cultures and other people and expanding our mind and and not just staying in our small bubble, you know.

Judith 27:45

Yes, that's exactly it. But it's very difficult when you're earning a living and you have to produce and you have to show productivity. Yeah, but it's a change that in that enhances not only your own life, but the life of every person you come in contact with. And it and it influences how you affect people when you come back from work, when you you'll your life has to be synchronous. How you show up at work, how you function at work, and who you are as a person, it all has to be the same thing. There has to be synchronicity in your life. Otherwise, you're a drone going to work, a robot who's gaining a salary, and then life is over.

Angela 28:24

Yes, we know it goes so fast, aren't we? Of course. How did I have my mother's hands down?

Judith 28:31

How did that happen? Yes, it goes so quickly. And and it's such a gift to have life, and it is such a gift to work in a in a profession where you can help people to enhance their lives. Yes, it's just it's great luck.

Angela 28:47

Yes.

Where Judith Writes And How To Follow

Angela 28:48

Where where are you most um writing for currently?

Judith 28:53

Right now, uh, well, there's a new magazine called Southwest Travel and Life.

Angela 28:59

Okay.

Judith 29:00

And we know the editor. And so it's an up, it's a different audience. They had a magazine, they run a magazine for many years, Northwest Travel and so they just started Southwest Travel Life, and we've been writing for them because, as I said, we know the um the editor. And it's very exciting for me because, first of all, it's photographically gorgeous, but also it's focused on the culture, it's focused on real things. Also, um, I write, I have a blog for psychology today called Transformative Travel. So, yeah, and it could be transformative travel through experiences, it could be anything. And then uh there is a magazine that's winning a lot of awards in New Mexico where we live. It's called New Mexico Jewish Journal. It's not about religion, I don't write about religion at all, but about very un okay, like the last article I just wrote for them. We went to Mexico City for a month, and um, I wrote about were Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo Jewish. They both, they both claim they were. So we went and invested, it's not about the religion, it's about identity. So that's an article that we could write that was very, and everybody's saying, Oh, I want to go, I want to see that mural, I want to do this, I want to do that. So it's writing about travel through elliptical through different lenses.

Angela 30:16

Wow, that is so cool. How can our listeners best, you know, follow your work online, connect with you that way?

Judith 30:23

Okay, our website is global adventure. It's singular, not adventures. Okay, globaladventure.us, like United States. So it's G-L-O-B-A-L A-D-V-E-N T-U-R-E dot us. And it has links to everything, to uh, to everything we're doing, to the books, to the articles, to everything. So that would be a great way. And you can contact us by email through through that site.

Angela 30:54

Great, and sign up for a monthly email too.

Judith 30:57

But it's only people who with whom we've had a personal connection. Okay. So, like if you connect to something that you hear that we're talking about today or something, then once a month we just send out one email with links to the articles and photos we've just published.

Angela 31:13

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Judith. You've been fantastic. I know we could talk forever, but I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me. I really appreciate you too. Thank you. u