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Inside The Residence: Kate Andersen Brower on Power, Privacy and the People Who Serve

• Angela Tuell • Season 5 • Episode 26

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Step past the velvet ropes and into the rooms where power becomes personal. Angela sits with bestselling author and journalist Kate Andersen Brower to trace a path from midnight shifts at CBS to Bloomberg’s White House beat and the books that reveal the people who keep the presidency moving. From riding on Air Force One to riding a helicopter that touched down on the Buckingham Palace lawn, Kate shares electric moments that shaped her view of leadership, access and the stakes of getting the story right.

We dig into the origin of The Residence and the staff whose names rarely make headlines but whose work steadies every administration—ushers who know first families as people, butlers who carry institutional memory and housekeepers who witness history at arm’s length. Kate unpacks the power and pressure of first ladies, the private grief that often underlies public composure and the ethical knots reporters face when truth, privacy and politics collide. She explains why some stories humanize rather than sensationalize, and how multiple credible sources guide what makes it to the page.

Kate also opens up about her work being featured on screen as The Residence inspired a Netflix series, why she chose to stay focused on writing over producing and what she misses—and doesn’t—about daily journalism. Looking ahead, she previews a forthcoming book with Norah O’Donnell spotlighting overlooked women who built America, and a deep dive into the presidential secretaries who sit just outside the Oval Office, balancing loyalty with duty. If you care about media, history and the people who keep institutions running when no one’s watching, this conversation will stay with you.

Links & Resources Mentioned in This Episode

  • The Residence – Inside the Private World of the White House
    Kate Anderson Brower’s bestselling book offering a rare, behind-the-scenes look at the White House residence staff and the non-political professionals who serve presidents and their families.
  • First Women – The Grace and Power of America’s Modern First Ladies
    An intimate portrait of modern first ladies, revealing the unseen pressures, influence, and complexity of a role with no formal job description.
  • Team of Five – Former Presidents and Their Relationships
    A revealing look at how living former presidents interact, support, and sometimes clash behind the scenes.
  • First in Line – The Lives and Power of U.S. Vice Presidents
    A deep dive into the often-overlooked role of the vice presidency and the individuals who have held it.
  • Elizabeth Taylor: The Grit & Glamour of an Icon
    The first authorized biography of Elizabeth Taylor, tracing her extraordinary life, legacy, and activism.
  • The Residence (Netflix)
    A murder-mystery series inspired by Kate’s book, produced by Shonda Rhimes and starring Uzo Aduba, using the White House residence as its dramatic backdrop.
  • Kate Anderson Brower’s Website
    Learn more about Kate’s books, reporting, and current projects at katebrower.com.


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Angela:

Welcome to Media in Minutes. This is your host, Angela Tuell. This podcast features in-depth interviews with those who report on the world around us. They share everything from their favorite stories to what happened behind the lens and give us a glimpse into their world. From our studio here at Communications Redefined, this is Media in Minutes. Today we're talking with Kate Anderson Brower, bestselling author and journalist whose books peel back the curtain on some of America's most iconic institutions. She is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, The Residence, inside the private world of the White House, as well as other national bestsellers, including First Women, The Grace and Power of America's Modern First Ladies. Her books also include Team of Five, First in Line, and the first authorized biography of the Hollywood icon Elizabeth Taylor. Kate covered the White House during the Obama administration for Bloomberg News, and earlier in her career worked as a staffer at major networks, including CBS and Fox News. She lives outside Washington, D.C. with her husband, three children, and their Wheaton Terrier and splits her time between writing, research, and family life. Hi, Kate. How are things in Maryland? Things are good, Angela.

Speaker:

It's beautiful. It's freezing cold, but it's beautiful. That's good.

Angela:

I'd love to jump right in and talk a little bit about how your career spans your traditional journalism from Bloomberg, CBS, Fox, and Long Forum, nonfiction writing. Could you briefly walk us through your career? I know that briefly might be hard to do, and how you got to where you are today. And did you always want to be a journalist?

Speaker:

Yeah, you know, my dad is a writer. He um he worked at People Magazine and then he actually helped found People Magazine in the early 80s. Yeah. So I saw him w working from home, writing books. He wrote, he writes books about, you know, the royal family and sort of more pop culture, um, the Kennedys. And I just thought his lifestyle was really great because selfishly, as a parent, like he was there for me a lot. Um, you know, and he works from home and he uh, you know, when a book comes out, there's always a lot around that, but it was very much like cyclical. It wasn't all the time. Um, and it's just really fun to interview people and to use your creative energy that way. So I've always loved asking questions. Um, have always been a real huge news consumer, and I've always been interested in politics. So I kind of converged when I moved to DC. My first job out of college was working the overnight shift at CBS as a broadcast associate. So that was not, you know, glamorous. Not glamorous. And then I um did that for a couple of years, and I was just desperate to not be, you know, working from midnight to 10 in the morning. Right. And so I there was an opportunity at Fox News in DC. And so I transferred down here in 2005, and I've been here ever since. But I think the best job I've ever had was at Bloomberg News, which was when um that was 2009 to 2012, 2013, they needed somebody to be on the White House beat. You know, I had been in TV 2007, 2008 helping produce one of their TV shows. And I thought, wow, it'd be amazing to actually cover the White House for the wire service. And they needed somebody. And so I, you know, didn't have kids, I wasn't married yet. It was like a perfect opportunity. And literally, I mean, I worked with about four other reporters who covered the White House for Bloomberg, and they they would be like, Ah, I don't want to go on that, you know, trip. Why don't you go? And I would get to go to on Air Force One to wherever. So it was really amazing. Yeah.

Angela:

Yeah. So during your time, that was during the Obama administration, right?

Speaker:

Yes. And then I and then I decided to, so then I had a uh our first son in 2012, and I just could not make the hours work. And I ended up coming up with a book idea for the residents, and that that ended up selling. So I kind of went from there into being self-employed.

Angela:

Okay. So we'll talk more about that in a minute for sure. I would love to know a little more about Bloomberg and your work at the White House. What so you went into this, you know, as a first-time White House correspondent. What surprised you?

Speaker:

Probably just how uh, well, as a there the wire service's three main um uh agencies. So it was Reuters, Bloomberg, and the Associated Press. And they need people with the president almost all the time, except for when he's in the residence. So they need people to be there. I remember I started off when George W. Bush was president, and they would have us sit in a van while he went bike riding at a military base. And you would just make sure that, you know, he didn't like break his leg or anything and he'd report back. So it was kind of it was called body watch at the time. It still is. Um, and so I thought that was really interesting. And I think, you know, the the Air Force One experience was incredible because you're just um on this historic plane, and the president will come back and talk to you and other reporters occasionally. Um, and there's actually a phone, there's a landline phone, um, a couple of them where the press sit. And so if the president says anything really newsworthy, you all get together and agree on what he said, and one of you will call. Um, it it rings in the DC bureaus of the Associated Press, Reuters, and Bloomberg, and the editors all pick up and they transcribe what you said, and then it goes out to the world. So while you're in the air, you are reporting the news that the president made. And I just thought that only happened a couple times when I was on um a trip with him, but it was really exciting. That was probably the coolest thing.

Angela:

Yes, that is so exciting. What were some of your most memorable trips?

Speaker:

I think, you know, I went to Ireland with President Obama and he went to visit his like Irish roots there. He does have some family from Ireland. Um, and just land we landed. Um, the first stop was, I believe we went to London first and we landed on the south lawn. Well, the the lawn of Buckingham Palace in helicopters. That was the coolest thing I've ever done, just landing on the Buckingham Palace lawn. Few people ever get to see the backyard of Buckingham Palace, and it was gorgeous, and it was very like Downton Abbey because you know, the the Queen and Prince Philip came out, and then all of the staff came out to greet him. It was just incredible. Um, so I think those trips were great. Uh, I also went to Columbia and South America with President Obama for a G8 meeting, and I think he that was a really controversial trip because the Secret Service had gotten in trouble for some things they did. Um, and he came to the back of the plane and was kind of laughing about it with us. So I think there's, I mean, there's just really nothing like feeling like it's not only the president, but you're there representing your country in a way. And I kind of feel like the most interesting trips are when you go to countries that are very different. Like um, when Biden was vice president, I went to China and Mongolia with him. And he like we were literally, there were only three reporters on that trip, and we were being manhandled by their press people because they're a communist country and they weren't and he and Biden got involved and asked them to stop personally. And so that was really fascinating. That trip.

Angela:

Wow. Not not to get into current events too much yet, but from you being on the front lines there, how do you feel about that?

Speaker:

I think it's an incredibly important job being a reporter, being a journalist covering the president. There should be a level of respect that presidents give to the people covering them. Um, I do think in this administration, um, President Trump has often talked about the press as the enemy in a lot of ways. And I think that's dangerous. And, you know, the First Amendment is what makes our country special. And um, so I I think it just it's very concerning to see the way the press are treated. And I think it honestly makes their job so much more important. And hopefully people will have um, some people will have a newfound respect for what they do.

Angela:

Yes, that is a great point. So going back to your transition, you did that and then had child. So we need to tell us a little bit more about the residents and and how that came about.

Speaker:

You know, it was really just an idea that I had when uh when I was covering Obama, you know, there were opportunities to um do things with the first lady and the vice president because I was a junior reporter, and people, believe it or not, are not as interested in the first lady and the vice president, even though I think they're fascinating. Yes. Um and um so I remember going to a lunch with Michelle Obama, and there were about a dozen of us, mostly female, maybe all female reporters, who went to her events, and we were in the old family dining room um on the state floor, the the first floor of the White House. Okay, and a butler um came in and you know, he was in, he was an older black uh gentleman wearing a tuxedo. And he came in and he was serving us. It was this very elegant lunch with champagne and china, and you know, it was just really amazing. And she knew this butler by his name. And I just thought, who are these people? We never get to see them. And it kind of was percolating in the back of my mind about the residence staff and the housekeepers, the ballets, you know, and the more I found out about them, the more interested I was. And so on maternity leave with our son, who is now 13, I can't believe it. It just kind of like made me think that it could be a really interesting book, a sort of a modern history book looking at the generations of people who serve the White House and who most importantly are not political appointees. They're there from one administration to the next, and they just want to serve the presidency, which is kind of a a lost art and I think a really important thing. They're very patriotic people.

Angela:

And it still happens that way, even with the administration. Okay.

Speaker:

Yeah, it does. Although they've signed NDAs, as far as I know, so non-disclosure agreements, and I I cannot get to them in the way that I could before, unfortunately.

Angela:

Oh, unfortunate. What are some of your favorite stories about them, the ones that you spoke with?

Speaker:

Um, I mean, I'm a sucker for all things Kennedy. So, you know, when I talked to uh Nelson Pierce, who had been an usher during the Kennedy years, and he was just talking about being there with Caroline Kennedy and teaching her how to do somersaults on the second floor of the lighthouse. And, you know, these kind of incredible moments. Um, I think I do think the craziest story is about the Carters with Mary Prince, who was their nan their daughter's nanny, who had been convicted of murder. She's a black woman convicted of murder in Georgia in the 60s. She did not get a fair trial. And the Carters really, you know, practiced like they preached. They they loved Mary. They got to know her when they were in the governor's mansion in Georgia. Mary worked there um as a prisoner on like a work release program. And she met Amy Carter, and they just really got along so well. And they the Carters hired Mary to be their daughter's nanny, and they brought her to the White House. And Jimmy Carter was her parole officer, and they got her cleared of these charges because they weren't there. And um, Mary has been a part of the Carter family forever. In fact, she was at both of their funerals right in the front rows. So I thought that was like a really beautiful story, you know. Um, and I and pretty hard to believe. That's that one really stuck with me.

Angela:

Yes. So you said Residence was your first book?

Speaker:

Yes. Okay.

Angela:

So then you've also had First Women. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Speaker:

That was a book that I wrote right after the residence. People would tell me at the White House that, you know, when when a directive comes from the second floor, they always do it. And then I said, What is the second floor? And that's the residence, that's the first ladies from you. Um, and so it made me kind of want to know more about these women who are so famous, but we don't really know what goes on behind the scenes or how difficult that job is. I mean, there's no playbook, they each kind of do it the way they um decide to. And uh as you know, they all say, like they'll get criticized no matter what. So their advice to anyone following their footsteps is just do what you want to do because you'll never be, you'll never satisfy everyone as First Lady. Women always have it tougher, I guess.

Angela:

Yes.

Speaker:

So I got to interview some of them and and I really had a lot of newfound respect for what they go through. There's just no there, you know, there's nothing in the constitution that describes their job. There's no pay. Even when Michelle Obama did her let's move campaign about healthy eating and ending obesity for children, that was like a controversial thing. And it's just shocking. I mean, there's there's really nothing in our divided country that they can pick that will be without criticism.

Angela:

I think because you would think that would be one that would be without criticism.

Speaker:

Yes.

Angela:

Which first ladies did you get to talk with directly?

Speaker:

Well, um, I had talked to Michelle Obama when I was at the White House, but I talked to um Laura Bush, Barbara Bush, Rosalind Carter. Um I never got to Hillary Clinton because it was during the 2016 campaign that I was working on that book, and that was just a very heated time. Um, so I think it was it's funny because it was easier to get, you know, some of them to talk about the resident staff than it was to talk about themselves.

Angela:

Um, I think women in general too, sometimes.

Speaker:

Yes. Yeah. Like they don't want to talk about themselves. They feel they're bored of talking about themselves, you know. Um, so I think that that was it was a lot trickier than I thought it would be to report that book because people are so and the East Wing staff at the time, they're so protective over the first lady because they're like, look, she didn't ask for this job. She's just here because of her husband, and people should give her more grace. That's the message.

Angela:

That is fascinating. Do you do you have an unexpectedly emotional moment during any of your reporting for the books?

Speaker:

I think learning about Barbara Bush's daughter, Robin, who died of leukemia when she was very, very young, and talking to her a little bit about that and how that shaped their life and their appreciation for family was emotional. Um, and there's like an incredible letter that George H.W. Bush wrote to his daughter after she died, and it's just amazing. Um, and I think just knowing how personal it is, I think you look at someone like Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton and you think, oh, they've got it all together, nothing phases them. But there is a real, I mean, they're human beings, they do break down. Um, I think probably the most controversial reporting I did was about um the Monica Lewinsky and how, you know, during that period of time, um, Hillary Clinton had her husband sleeping in the sitting room next to their bedroom and did not, you know, want to see him. And I I thought that made her very human. But um, I don't think the Clintons want to be reminded of that time. But it was interesting also from the staff perspective, not only from the East Wayne staff, but from the resident staff. I mean, they said it was like having your parents wondering if your parents are gonna get a divorce or not, you know. Yes. That feeling. It was interesting.

Angela:

Yes, super interesting. And since then you've written three other books, correct?

Speaker:

Yes. I wrote a book about vice presidents called First in Line, a book about the former presidents and their relationship with each other called Team of Five. And then I kind of took a total unexpected turn and wrote a biography of Elizabeth Taylor. I'm a fan. And then I also got to know Senator John Warner, who was her husband when she lived in Washington. And I originally wanted to do that book in a very Washington way and to just talk about her time when she was married to him and how she hated it here, and then how that led to her AIDS and HIV work. And I met with the trustees of her estate and her family, and they said, Why don't you write an entire book about her entire life? And it was just totally overwhelming because she was so amazing and did so much.

Angela:

This is probably like asking if you have a favorite child, but do you have a favorite book so far?

Speaker:

Oh, definitely. No, it's actually a lot easier than the favorite book. Okay, okay. The Residence is the book that I just loved working on the most. And, you know, the reaction to that book was the most um positive, I think. Although the other books have done well. Although the vice president book, I will say, was the hardest book because who knew that people weren't that interested in the vice presidency? So, you know, that was a hard book to get people interested in. Um, but the residents, I think it touches a nerve because the great thing about the residents is is it's about like normal people. And it's not about, you know, they they don't have like any political motivations. And I think people are so sick of Washington and politics. But it was a way of talking about writing about history and world events without, you know, being partisan in any way, and that's hard to find these days.

Angela:

Yes, absolutely. And it's so popular that it is a series on Netflix now. How did that come about?

Speaker:

That was really amazing. I still pinch myself over that. Um, when I see it on the Netflix, like uh you know, options, I'm just like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. Um, I mean, it inspired that series. Have you seen the series? Because it's very different.

Angela:

We've seen two so far, so not the whole series yet.

Speaker:

Yes. Okay. It's very different from the book. They use the book as inspiration for the series. It's a the series is a murder mystery written by this great guy named Paul William Davies and produced by Shonda Rhimes. And Uzo Aduba is this detective in it. And um, she does an amazing job, and the cast is so stellar, and it's very much like uses the um kind of the framework from the book to tell a different story. But I mean, that book came out in 2015 and the show came out in 2025. So wow a long slog. It went through many different uh it went through a different Kevin Spacey owned it at first. I mean, it was just a whole bunch of things happening, and then I'm so happy that it ended up with Shonda Rhimes because she's so brilliant. So I'm very happy with that. Yeah. Were you involved in it at all? No, I was not. And and you know, at first I was like, should I should I try to be involved? And then I realized, I mean, I went out to see the set and I met the cast and went to the premiere and all that, but I didn't write it. And I think that, you know, I'm not a screenwriter and I trust the people who are to do the best job with it. I wanted to kind of focus on what I think I I'm better at than what I'm good at.

Angela:

They've done a great job from what I've seen so far. What do you miss most or least about daily journalism?

Speaker:

I miss most just the excitement of it and the feel like I couldn't wait, especially working for Bloomberg. It was exciting because it was all about getting it fast and whatever the president said, you know, it was like you wanted to be the first to have the quote and all that. But um, so I miss that the most. And then the the thing I don't miss at all is just the schedule being so I mean, I don't, I have so much respect for people who balance family and that job. It is so hard. It is 24-7, especially with President Trump. Um, they work really, really hard to get the news out there. And I think most people go into it. Not everybody, that's for sure, but most people do go into it trying to just do their jobs, you know.

Angela:

Right. Yeah, that's what when we train, when we do media training for executives or, you know, employees and companies, that is my first thing of they're regular people that want to do the best they can at their job and go home to their family at the end of the day. Like they're not out to get you. Yes, that's absolutely right.

Speaker:

Yes.

Angela:

I think what's hard is it's it's so hard nowadays to know the difference between a journalist and a commentator and social, you know, for for the general public, I guess.

Speaker:

So that's where um I think for every I mean, almost for everybody now it's gotten so bad that, you know, AI is doing things and you can't tell if it's real or not. Right. Yeah, it's a definitely a scary time to be in.

Angela:

It is, absolutely. I don't know if you can tell us this, but do you have any books in the works?

Speaker:

I do. I have a book with Nora O'Donnell. It was her idea to write a book um about the women who helped build the country from its inception, from 1776 to today, who most people don't know about. So we profile about 35 women from an enslaved uh woman named Phyllis Wheatley, who was one of the first published women in the country. She was an incredible poet, um, to a woman whose name was on the Declaration of Independence as the printer of the Declaration of Independence and took a huge risk doing that. Um, so it's a history book, but it also goes up to the modern day about the kind of unsung heroes, um, the hidden figures of our country. And I hope that it comes out February 24th, and it was really interesting to work on because I learned a lot of these stories I had never been taught in school, you know?

Angela:

So that sounds fascinating. Can't wait to read that one.

Speaker:

Thank you. Yeah, and she was wonderful to work with, and so she's so smart and um she's so passionate about women and women's contributions to our country.

Angela:

Yeah. So are there others you're working on as well? Is it kind of, you know, multiple at once or does it Yeah.

Speaker:

No, I have another book. Well, since that book is done, I have another book that I am working on now about the secretaries to the president. So the women that sit in the outer oval. Um, which is very yes. So that one's been amazing because it's kind of like the residents, and that these are people who are there to serve the presidency, um, who you haven't heard of, who have this incredible access to the president. They sit a few feet away from the oval office. And so I've loved working on that book, and that will not come out until 2027, but that's that's what I'm spending every day on, basically. Yeah.

Angela:

So they they don't have NDAs, or maybe they do now?

Speaker:

No, maybe they do now, but they didn't. I mean, I've interviewed up through Biden. I have interviewed up through Biden. Um, and that's a really excellent question because I'm trying to get to the Trump secretary, and it is very, very difficult. She's currently there now. Um so no, it's a really it's it's been interesting. It's always, as you know, more it's it's much easier to get people who are not there anymore.

Angela:

Right. Are they political appointees?

Speaker:

Uh well, that's a great question. They are much more political than the resident staff. They usually do come over with the president. There are a few that are there. There's a woman named Nell Yates who was there for decades. Um, through Reagan, she started with like God, I think it was Eisenhower. I mean, it was just an insane period of time. Um, but now, like everything else, it's become more political, unfortunately. Yeah.

Angela:

So I'm sure researching and writing these deep dive books must be intense. What does your process look like? Is it always the same?

Speaker:

It is always the same. Although I just did an event with another writer who I explained how I do it. And she's like, that's such an it's such a bulky, difficult way that you can make this so much easier for yourself. Because apparently there's some app. I'm very not tech savvy. It's called Scribner, I think. Anyway, um, where you can organize your thoughts and your research better. What I do is I literally dump it all into a Word document and then read through the Word document. And so it's like hundreds, I think I have a thousand pages at this point for the the secretary book. And then if something's really good, I'll write so good. And I do a word search for that. So that's how old-fashioned I am about this. I have to get better.

Angela:

It works for you though, right? You know, sometimes when you put in that that technology side, it can it can make it more difficult, but it could be helpful.

Speaker:

Yeah, no, that's what I'm going with. I'm like, uh, this has worked so far. I mean, maybe my next book, I'll try to be a little more modern.

Angela:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have to ask too, given your access to history and power and the people you talk with, how do you navigate between, you know, telling revealing stories, but also respecting privacy sort of thing of real people?

Speaker:

Yeah, it's really hard to do because some things like the Hillary Clinton story about, you know, what she went through in her anger at that period of time when the Lewinsky um affair became public, I thought made her seem much more human and likable. But for the campaign, they thought it was not a good thing. So I think I kind of um sometimes I always just want to tell the truth. And if multiple people are saying the same thing and they're credible, I will use it. If it's people that have like an axe to grind, and there were many stories that I did not include in the in all of my books that were just, you know, if you're a disgruntled ex-employee or you personally didn't like that particular first lady or president, then you know, there are some people who were less trustworthy than others. And so I think it is tricky. I think especially, I mean, I've had people say I should write about the children of the presidents, but it's like those are just kids. They didn't ask for that kind of um spotlight. So I have not ever done that before.

Angela:

Yeah, that would be a tough one, unless it's like the adult children of presidents. Yes.

Speaker:

If they're still like involved, if they are, you know, if they are still like in politics or if they're public figures, then that's different, I think.

Angela:

Yes, absolutely. I think that I mean, you know, the the bike the books that you write are so good because of your journalism skills. You know, like what your background is that, or else they they wouldn't be like they are, you know. So I completely um commend you for that. And I must ask before we go, even though I know we could keep talking for a long time, but I must ask if you could sit down for an off-the-record in conversation with anyone you've written about, who would it be?

Speaker:

Oh my gosh. I mean, I would love to talk to Eleanor Roosevelt because I think she was so incredible and I would love to understand her more. Um, but in the modern time, I would really be interested in Melania Trump, honestly. I think she's so hard to understand and to know. And her book where she talked about being pro-choice, which I thought was so interesting given her husband's position. I I'm just I would love to have an actual, I mean, it's a different question. Like have a have a real conversation with someone where they were honest, it would probably be her because I'm curious what she really thinks. Yeah. Um so I guess, you know, but I mean, Eleanor Roosevelt, because she's just she transformed what women, not only first ladies, but what women can do in this country. And she was just incredible.

Angela:

Yes. Well, thank you for all you do. We love learning all of the stories that you write about.

Speaker:

Thank you so much. It's it's like it's such an honor to be able to spend my days, you know, learning things, new things every day. So I appreciate it. Thank you.

Angela:

Yeah, and documenting this for the future so that information isn't lost, you know.

Speaker:

Thank you. Yes.

Angela:

And how can our readers um connect with you online or stay up to date with your work?

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So I started a sub stack, which I have not been good about at all. Um, it's Kate Brower. I have a website, Kate Brower.com. Um, and then my books are uh, you know, on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. But yeah, you can connect. I I have been so deep in the secretary book that I haven't been as good as usual, but usually I am, you know, updating my website and and um my Substack. I really want to be better about Substack. Maybe I should ask you for advice.

Angela:

Yes, we can talk about that later. Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you so much for having me, Angela. That's all for this episode of Media and Minutes, a podcast by Communications Redefined. Take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe to our show. We'd love to hear what you think. You can find more at Communications Redefined dot com Slash Podcast. I'm your host, Angela Tuell. Talk to you next time.